Post-Abortion Syndrome and The APA. 2008.

Report of The APA Task Force on Mental Health and Abortion

"The TFMHA evaluated all empirical studies published in English in peer-reviewed journals post-1989 that compared the mental health of women who had an induced abortion to the mental health of comparison groups of women (N=50) or that examined factors that predict mental health among women who have had an elective abortion in the United States (N=23). This literature was reviewed and evaluated with respect to its ability to address four primary questions: (1) Does abortion cause harm to women’s mental health? (2) How prevalent are mental health problems among women in the United States who have had an abortion? (3) What is the relative risk of mental health problems associated with abortion compared to its alternatives (other courses of action that might be taken by a pregnant woman in similar circumstances)? And, (4) What predicts individual variation in women’s psychological experiences following abortion?"

Spoiler:

"Nonetheless, it is clear that some women do experience sadness, grief, and feelings of loss following termination of a pregnancy, and some experience clinically significant disorders, including depression and anxiety. However, the TFMHA reviewed no evidence sufficient to support the claim that an observed association between abortion history and mental health was caused by the abortion per se, as opposed to other factors."

Fun Activity:

Print this off and leave it on the table of your local CPC!

How "Pro-Life" is "Pro-Life"?

From The New York Times:

Abortion Battle Shifts to Clinic in Nebraska

The national battle over abortion, for decades firmly planted outside the Kansas clinic of Dr. George R. Tiller, has erupted here in suburban Omaha, where a longtime colleague has taken up the cause of late-term abortions.

Since Dr. Tiller was shot to death in May, his colleague, Dr. LeRoy H. Carhart, has hired two people who worked at Dr. Tiller’s clinic and has trained his own staff members in the technical intricacies of performing late-term abortions.

Dr. Carhart has also begun performing some abortions “past 24 weeks,” he said in an interview, and is prepared to perform them still later if they meet legal requirements and if he considers them medically necessary.

“There is a need, and I feel deeply about it,” said Dr. Carhart, visibly weary after a day when eight patients had appointments at his clinic here.

The late-term abortions, coming after the earliest point when a fetus might survive outside the womb, are the most controversial, even among some who favor abortion rights. A few of Dr. Carhart’s employees quit when he told them of his plans to expand the clinic’s work.

Opponents of abortion, who had devoted decades to trying to stop Dr. Tiller’s business with protests and calls for investigations, are now turning their efforts to stopping Dr. Carhart. Troy Newman, the president of Operation Rescue, an anti-abortion group, said he had traveled from the group’s headquarters in Wichita, Kan., to Nebraska six times in recent months, portraying this suburb of fewer than 50,000 as a new battlefield in the abortion fight.

“We’re trying to get criminal charges against him, to get his license revoked, and to get legislators there to look at the law,” Mr. Newman said of Dr. Carhart.

State law in Nebraska bans abortions in cases when a fetus clearly appears to have reached viability, except to “preserve the life or health of the mother.”

Abortion-rights advocates say the need exists for late-term abortions, in cases of extraordinary genetic defects and other dire health circumstances, and some had worried that only a few physicians would be willing to provide such care after Dr. Tiller’s killing, an act prosecutors say was carried out by an abortion foe.

“He’s standing up, and so are some others,” Vicki Saporta, president of the National Abortion Federation, said of Dr. Carhart.

A few other doctors have long performed late-term abortions, and some said both the threats against them and their efforts at security had increased since Dr. Tiller’s death.

Dr. Carhart, 68, knew Dr. Tiller for years, and would make regular trips to his clinic in Wichita to perform abortions there, as other physicians did. Though Dr. Tiller’s clinic was not the only one in the country performing late-term abortions, it was a focal point for controversy. Operation Rescue even moved its headquarters to Wichita because of Dr. Tiller’s practice.

Dr. Carhart, who has been performing abortions since the 1970s, is no stranger to the debate; he has been a litigant in two abortion-related cases decided by the United States Supreme Courtover a particular method of abortion referred to by critics as “partial-birth abortion.” And immediately after Dr. Tiller’s killing, Dr. Carhart offered to continue operating his clinic, but the Tiller family decided to close it.

Still, in the months since the killing, Dr. Carhart has made changes at his clinic and to his lifestyle as he has openly moved to take up Dr. Tiller’s cause.

Visitors to the clinic here must pass through a metal detector, new security cameras scan outside the building and a security consultant is employed full time. Dr. Carhart says he goes out publicly only on short, unscheduled trips and rarely eats out (and when he does, he says he stays less than 30 minutes). Dr. Carhart, an Air Force veteran, said his daughter was wed this fall on a nearby military base, mainly for security and privacy.

“We do everything differently now,” he said.

Dr. Carhart declined to provide specifics on how late in a pregnancy he would be willing to perform an abortion. Dr. Tiller performed them, in some cases, as late as in the third trimester of pregnancy. Dr. Carhart’s fee schedule lists prices for abortions up to 22 weeks and 6 days (at that point, $2,100 in cash or $2,163 on a credit card), but notes that abortions after 23 weeks are available “after consultation with our doctor,” and that abortions after the 27th week may take four days.

At his clinic in the past, Dr. Carhart said, he had performed abortions up to about 22 weeks into gestation — considered by some to be near the earliest point at which a fetus can survive outside the womb, a notion known as viability and one that is cited in many laws related to abortion.

Dr. Carhart’s opponents insist that late-term procedures violate state and federal statutes as well as professional rules. They have approached officials in Nebraska seeking an investigation. Mr. Newman, who had regularly called for investigations into Dr. Tiller’s work but strongly denounced his killing, has submitted a complaint about Dr. Carhart to Jon Bruning, Nebraska’s attorney general. In it, Mr. Newman accuses Dr. Carhart of using improper operating procedures under shoddy conditions.

Representatives of Mr. Bruning would not comment on whether an investigation was taking place. Marla Augustine, a spokeswoman for the State Department of Health and Human Services, which regulates physicians, said Dr. Carhart had no formal disciplinary actions on his record.

(In 1993, she said, he signed an assurance of compliance with the state, promising not to do certain things, like talk on the phone during surgical procedures, but the agreement says it did not mean he had admitted committing any violations and was not considered a disciplinary action.)

Dr. Carhart, meanwhile, said he had heard nothing lately from state officials. “Anybody can file a claim,” he said.

A brochure for his clinic shows a photograph of Dr. Carhart beside Dr. Tiller, and says that the clinic dedicates “our services to women in honor of” Dr. Tiller. Asked whether he feared a similar fate as Dr. Tiller’s, Dr. Carhart said he had signed up for this life.

“They have never targeted me more,” he said of abortion opponents. “But to me, the most dangerous response would be for me to stop what I am doing. The thought that killing Tiller might also succeed in closing another clinic — that’s my main reason for keeping open.”

Emphasis mine.
One of the pictures in the article show protesters at Dr. Tiller's funeral holding signs that say "Abortion is Bloody Murder" and "God Sent The Killer".
Anyone else see something wrong with this?

An Unexpected Comment...

So this was unexpected…

The woman I’ve been debating on Blogspot for sometime not only posted my quote from the New York Oby/Gyn but she included a comment:

1. There is some logic to this and nobody has said that these providers are all heartless and evil. Though the commercial interest already mentioned must be taken into account.

2. Yet, what you write should not incite you against Back Porch or Pregnancy Care Centers?

3. It’s not all about money. People find money for what they find money for.

4. The ease of “under-the-counter”, where available, would be a problem, just like the abortion booked over the inter-net the night before. Or paying out of empty government coffers. The ease is a problem. Removing obstacles and stigma of abortion does not in the long run serve women.

5. Women “needing” these abortions, via pharmacy or clinic, is a symptom of other problems that should not be ignored: usually a history of poor choices involving males, relationships, schooling, sex and STD’s. Having an abortion or a series of them does not often wake them up to that. You have to have support and make some right choices before something will really help. The abortion is only a band-aid on a big gash of a wound.

6. Women coming out of the local abortion clinic are also needing emergency medical care and are transported off by ambulance.

7. Why are these pharmacy abortions available under the counter?

8. I sympathize with your ob-gyn friend. It is nearly impossible to do much in a busy practice beyond getting things done for the patient.

But obviously the patient needs also other care, which is social, psychological, spiritual. This care, however, involves the patient understanding where she has gone wrong. Saying that pro-lifers want to “punish” people for having sex, is a hysterical reaction.

When I counseled, a big opportunity always arose, when someone came in scared and it turned out they were not pregnant, at all. Then you have a huge opportunity to take time and explore where she’s been, wants to be going, what she’s learned from this scare, what this all means for her. It’s a big wake-up time. Ask them lots of questions and help them figure themselves out. Women need and deserve more than quick fixes. Men need to be men, too, and provide what they are supposed to provide. Ignoring the gravity of the situation (we are talking about your baby, a new person; you have got yourself into a big mess; you need to look your life and philosophy over very carefully) and not helping her with this, is doing her a disservice. There is a good chance she will continue to spiral, end up angry and yea, maybe with PAS or major disorders. And, yes, frequently, with more abortions. It will not have helped except dealt with a perceived “emergency”.

Making a good choice now, will set her up for more good choices down the road—such as making a choice, now, to give up that rotten “boy-friend”, that abusive “spouse”; talk to your parents, a pastor, a counsellor; place the baby with a family and visit the child; you can feel good about it and yourself, the rest of your life; they will love you and respect you. Or what else can happen—maybe even turning, or turning back, to God, whose love is the foundation for all profound love, your best friend. You have to realize you will not value yourself highly enough until you realize that the living God went to the cross for you, to bear the weight of your sins so you could have fellowship with him; and he did the same for your child. You should value the child just as highly, because Christ died for that person,too. Everyone is wanted.

(I’m not sure if it’s my ego here, but does anyone else see a wee bit of bottled-issues here?)

Here’s my reply:

I must admit I’m very confused here…
I posted a comment that was relevant to this discussion. It had nothing to do with CPCs, punishing people for having sex or anything like that.

I think your reaction is unreasonable.
That aside I’d like to clarify a few points:

1. Doctors make more if a woman remains pregnant. Many more visits and hospital stays.

2. I do not understand this point, please clarify it.

3. Your post was about de-funding abortion. This ob/gyn was explaining why that will actually cost the health care system money.

4. As I’ve stated before abortions are not drop-in procedures, there are waiting periods up to and over three weeks.

5. You don’t get to tell people what they can do with their life. Don’t go saying you know what’s best for everyone.

6.I suppose that’s true of a small minority. Most get in their cars and go on with their day.

7. You’ll note he says “medication to induce an abortion”. There are a wide variety of over-the-counter medications that have been shown to potentially induce abortions. Whether the medication he’s referring to is an abortificant by design or not is something I don’t know. However it shows that these women are desperate, they will do anything, including dangerous overdoses of everything from herbal tea to alcohol, to try and get an abortion. These unsafe methods kill 70,000 women every year.

9. Where did the woman “go wrong”?

10. There’s no such thing as PAS.
Fetuses are not persons.
Adoption is painful for women too, usually more so than abortion. Not all adoptions are open adoptions.
Stop mentioning your faith, your faith is not right for everyone.

I hope I’ve addressed some of your points, as unexpected as they were.

Love,

Rabble

Why Illegalizing Abortion Will Not Save Any Money.

I practice ob-gyn in new york, and estimate that about 80% of the abortions we do at my hospital are covered by Medicaid - probably similiar stats in the other 16 states where medicaid will cover it. With [the Stupak-Pitts Amendment], that coverage might disappear, if medicaid gets pulled into the exchange. Most of my patients will not have the money for an abortion. They will go to the pharmacy and buy medication to induce an abortion under the counter (widely available in our latino neighborhood).

They will come to the hospital with bleeding, probably denying that they took anything, but stuck somewhere in the process of the abortion, what we call “incomplete”. Most will be perfectly stable. But even those who are fine will require follow up ultrasounds, clinic visits and possibly a d&c to complete the process, as well as many expensive lab draws if the fetus is passed by the time they come to the hospital, because then we have to make sure it isn’t an ectopic pregnancy which requires weeks of follow up.

So, your not wanting to have your dollars go to pay for a $500 abortion has now turned into you paying $1500-$2000 in medicaid hospital bills for management of an “incomplete miscarriage” or “rule out ectopic.” You have saved yourself exactly NO tax dollars. Congratulations.

How do I know this exact sequence? Because we already do this exact thing between 3-5 times a week for women who already do this, because they don’t know abortion is legal, they don’t know medicaid will pay here, they have a friend who did it that way. If they take away the medicaid option, I’ll just be running my ass down to the ER to see these ladies about 200 times more often, and all you abortion-hating taxpayers will still be footing the bill.

Via: 1

Dear Brigette,

Rabble's Comments are In Italics

To be honest, when people posting anonymously accusing others posting anonymously, the conversation has a way of descending that irks me a lot.

Especially, when this turns into "YOU PEOPLE" and then a bunch of atrocities follow that the other "you people" supposedly committed.

The fire-bombings? Those aren’t ‘supposedly’. Those are facts, just like the 20 attempted murders. Those actually happened.
And when I say ‘you people’ I’m using it as a replacement for ‘Members of the movement to which you are aligning yourself’. It’s a bit of a mouthful and I didn’t think anyone would think I was personally accusing anyone.

I don't know anyone who firebombs or murders people or punishes people for having sex.

Is this a conversation you frequently have with people? I don’t know any people like that either.
However it is a fact that Members of the movement to which you are aligning yourself have firebombed, vandalized and bombed clinics 2400 times since abortion was made legal. It is also a fact that Members of the movement to which you are aligning yourself have killed 9 doctors. It is also a fact that the legislation that Members of the movement to which you are aligning yourself try to get passed would force women into maternity for having sex (sometimes even nonconsensual sex) regardless of whether they want the child. This is, effectively, punishing women for having sex.
Note that I’m not claiming all children are unwanted. For the women who want them, children are wonderful. For the women who don’t though, it would be horrific to force them to go through a pregnancy which could severely harm them, mentally and physically.

I do know people who have had abortions and feel that they have murdered people.

Good for you? I know people who have had abortions and don’t feel that. Heck, 1 in 4 women will have an abortion by age 30, I’ll bet even you know a few women who have had abortions and don’t feel like they killed someone.

They have been punishing themselves, not been punished by someone. It is some of those individuals who now feel compelled to afford other women who are rushing into an abortion a time to reconsider.

That last sentence could use a few commas, but I think I understand you.
You are making a strange assumption, no woman is even able to go to an abortion clinic right after she gets a positive pregnancy test. There’s a process the woman must go through. This usually means she has to make an appointment and then wait for that appointment. I highly doubt that women are spending that time between a positive test and the appointment completely ignoring the fact that they’re pregnant and not giving it another thought. That’s completely unreasonable. Who are Members of the movement to which you are aligning yourself to demand that a woman take more time? Do you not trust her to make her own decisions? I do.

When a young woman has sex and is not ready for the responsibility, and this is usually because her boyfriend/husband or parents don't support her other than driving her to the abortion clinic, or she wants no one to know, that she is in a position where there are NO MORE EASY CHOICES. All of it can feel like "punishment" and maybe it is. (See Genesis).

…did you just bring the Bible into this? Please, never do that again. Your faith is not mine and it is not the faith of everyone. I am not saying you can’t have your faith, go ahead. But you may not attempt to have your faith legislated.
That aside, you cannot know the situation of every woman. You can’t make broad generalizations about women and their relationships. So stop trying.

The pregnancy is hard, the birth is hard, the abortion is hard, placing for adoption is hard, the single parenting is hard, heck, all of parenting even under the best circumstances is hard. All of it is hard and none of it is the fault of any pro-lifers. It is the nature of the situation. That is just HOW it is. Nobody to blame.

I never said either option was easy.
But of the options you listed abortion is the least likely to kill women.

If a man becomes violent in any way, it is a terrible thing and he should be punished appropriately by the authorities. Nobody condones it. You might realize, however, that some of them feel that their own child/children have been "murdered" without their consent. Which is no excuse. If they are Christians they will remember the Lord's command not to take revenge.

Why don’t you take that up with them? It has nothing to do with me.

Nobody here has claimed to be more "compassionate" than anyone else. Pro-choicers and pro-lifers are "sinners" all alike. The complaint we are making here is that many women rush into abortion without proper time to think or counsel about it or find better support. The internet we are told furthers this problem by the ease in which appointments can be made.

I have told you before that abortions are not really drop-in procedures. I have also told you that you aren’t psychic. You do not know the situation of every woman walking into that clinic now stop acting like you do.

And, of course, we do believe that abortion is the worst of the choices because it is irreversible, final, and yes against God' ideas and most people's conscience in the long run.

Again, stop bringing your morality into this. Your personal faith is irrelevant to this argument.
And yet again, stop claiming you know how every woman feels after her abortion.

But we cannot force anyone not to do it. There will always be a way. Even the ancient Greeks had abortions. That is why the Hippocratic oath forbids it. We can only hope that people think about it more and that any measure that will help a women think and cope that can be put into place be put into place.

Every society ever has had abortions. It is only now, in the days of modern medicine, that abortions do not result in death. Except in countries where abortion is still illegal. In those countries women still suffer and die, leaving 42,000 children motherless every year.
Also, the Hippocratic oath says a lot of things, among them “if [my teacher] is in need of money to give him a share of mine” and “Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice…in particular of sexual relations”.
Doctors these days hardly even know the people who taught them and certainly aren’t giving away their money to them. They are also certainly visiting houses for reasons other than to heal the sick, like dinner parties. The oath is also to “all the gods, and goddesses” implying a pantheon that your monotheistic religion does not support.

Most of all, we need men and women to believe in committed relationships.

Excuse me? Why are you brining up relationships? That is completely irrelevant.

The other issue is that many, many times the boyfriends are the ones, who want this problem solved as soon as possible and are very "sweet" about helping the mother of their child to get to the abortion clinic as soon as possible. They will be very "supportive" for that one day and then the relationship usually comes to a natural conclusion.

That’s it. I’m sick of this. You need to get off your high horse and realize that you don’t know everything. You need to understand that you cannot know the mind, relationship status, future and/or situation of all women in the world.

Don't tell me that this is not a problem.

The problem I see here is you seeming to think you’re a psychic.

Bridgette's Second Comment:

Rabble, what is supposed to be a PAS advocate?

Terribly sorry, allow me to explain:
A PAS Advocate is anyone who argues (Advocates) for, spreads the myth of, or generally supports the existence of the false condition referred to as Post-Abortion Syndrome.

We are talking here about people who speak and cry with people who are suffering after their abortions. That does not make them advocates of anything. It makes them human beings with real human experiences.

I never said that being an advocate does not make someone human. That’s ridiculous.

Both Amanda and Pastor Erickson are young and I bet they have not seen anything, yet, that there will be much more from where their experiences have come from so far.

So?

Somehow "firebombers" are not a random sample, everyone who does not agree with you is accused of atrocity.

I never accused any one of that. Don’t put words in my mouth.

But when people talk about talking with aborted women you can just write that off as a skewered sample? Sorry, Rabble, they have not conducted a scientific study, they only have talked with people who have sought them out. That does not make it any less real. You can't just dismiss that because you don't like it.

Again, I never have and never will state that no women feel grief after abortions. Find me a moment where I said that. But it is not a psychological condition. The women who you hear about are not the women who feel relief after the abortion. Those women are much more common than those who feel grief. You can’t dismiss the majority just because you don’t like it.

Yes, I agree, studies form 30 years ago, are ridiculous to cite.

Where are you getting 30 from? I said 21. 21 is closer to 13 than it is to 30. And the APA didn’t magically disappear after that study. They’re still around and they review studies all the time. There has been no change in their stance. The reason I’m citing the APA is because they are the authority on psychology and psychiatry. I trust their stance far beyond any individual study.

If it is left out of manuals now, there could be a number of reasons for that. It might include people like yourself standing up accusing them of all kinds of things including: "firebombing", "murdering", "feeding cookies to unwitting victims", "punishing people for having sex", being "stupid", having a "fucking God", faking "compassion", "depriving women of necessary surgeries", and what else.

Just so you’re aware, the DSM doesn’t bend easily to public will. It took years to have homosexuality removed. Removing something from the DSM is very difficult, however they have a penchant for adding new conditions, phobias and increasing they symptoms of diseases. Also, if you’re going to quote me like that, make sure you’re using terms I actually used.

Just a half a minutes worth of googleing produces links such as this one:

http://www.abortionclinics.ca/recent-research.pdf

And less than half a minute of looking at that pdf reveals the REAL source: http://www.theunchoice.com/
Propaganda is not a proper source.

It does make one wonder whose research is more up-to-date and more correct. And it does make one wonder why you ignore it.

I ignore it because it is taken out of context and misquoted.
Allow me to present you with a link to an article about Abortion and Mental Health. This is from the Guttemacher Institute, a reproductive-health think tank that collect good studies about these issues:
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/gpr/09/3/gpr090308.html
Here too, is an article they mention, done in 2006: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/summaries/2006/05/04/AiWL_exec_summ.pdf
I hope you’ll find this research up-to-date.
Love,
Rabble

Via: 1, 2

Reasons Why A Fetus Can Never Be Considered A Person

Note: This is not mine, it's taken from this lady on tumblr.

“Now, if you think any fertilized egg is a “person,” deserving of all the same legal protections as a “post-birth” person, then there are a number of other things you’ve got to do besides make abortion illegal:

* You’ve got to count pregnancies in the census. This requires census workers to force all pubescent girls to take pregnancy tests.

* You’ve got to allow people to take tax deductions for pregnancies, even those fleeting, naturally terminating pregnancies that the mothers don’t even know about.

* You’ve got to make it illegal for a woman to smoke, drink, ride roller coasters, etc. while pregnant, even if she doesn’t know she’s pregnant.

* If a girl gets pregnant, doesn’t know it, goes water skiing and terminates the pregnancy, you’ve got to arrest her for negligent homicide. Basically, all fertile women will be required to undergo regular pregnancy tests and other gynecological exams to find out of they’re “murdering babies.”

* If a woman is on prescription medication that would harm a fetus, you must do one of the following things: make it illegal for her to have sex, remove her uterus, or regularly test her and require her to stop taking her medication - possibly putting her at risk - the moment she becomes pregnant.

* If a man impregnates a woman and she continues to drink, eat poorly, take medication, jump on trampolines, etc. - anything that endangers the “person” within her - the man should be able to sue the woman for full custody of their child.”

Can’t you see how absolutely ridiculous that is to consider a zygote alive?

She didn't want to start a debate, but I'll field any debates for her.

Dear People,

Okay, wow. I am apparently such a huge disturbance that it requires four different people to try and refute me.

That’s fine, but I’m a busy girl, please understand that I won’t be able to reply right away and I’ll have to give you guys single-comment replies. I can’t respond to all of you individually as much as I’d like to.

Let’s start with Bror, who keeps mixing up your and you’re. Here’s a tip, if what you mean to say is ‘you are’ then you turn the ‘a’ into an apostrophe and make it you’re.

I think that the Back Porch, with its insistence on women getting outside counseling (only the people there are not actually counselors) should at the very least make sure that the women they’re offering cookies to know that this will make it so they can’t have their surgery that day.

You claim “these women eat a cookie and have another day to think about the whole thing” but you’re ignoring the fact that Options does not only cater to local women. Women from poor communities in the North have to find a way to Options if they want an abortion. When The Back Porch feeds these women they are often taking away the only chance a poor woman has for a safe abortion. This usually means that those women are going to have unsafe abortions, which kill women.

I’m not the one denying PAS. The governing body of psychological and psychiatric research denies PAS. It simply doesn’t exist. Your experience as a pastor is biased because you are only encountering women who feel guilt afterwards. You are not talking to the women who feel relieved afterwards. Odds are the women you’re talking to had some sort of condition before the abortion (like say an abusive partner). You’re also not talking to the women who were forcibly impregnated by an abusive partner and the abortion was a welcome relief.

And your comment about murder is ridiculous. Abortion is not murder.

Now Bridgette,

Please find me one doctor who has a degree in abortion giving. No such thing exists. As for the doctors who perform abortions at that clinic, why do you care how old they are? My grandfather is over 80 and he still works on his farm. Is he too old to be working? You can’t state that just because someone is working at a particular age that they haven’t been doing their job right.

The Planned Parenthood article is mostly irrelevant to this argument. As I’ve stated the woman’s story is full of holes. She’d been caught removing patient files not long before she had ‘a change of heart’. It’s also questionable how she became the director of Planned Parenthood if she was apparently unaware of how abortions were performed. And I really don’t care how long the government expects you to keep receipts. The point is that abortions have never been a large part of Planned Parenthood. The cost of birth control over two years is way higher than that of an abortion. And Birth control takes far fewer staff members to hand out. It simply doesn’t make sense for abortions to be a large part of Planned Parenthood.

Any yes, Bridgette I am pro-choice and against the Back Porch. I think the Back Porch has a place, no doubt. But by refusing to give simple directions and by not warning the women in advance about the consequences of the cookies and lastly by spread false, fear-mongering, information they are far over-stepping their boundaries.

And Steve,

A six month old cannot survive alone, true, but it can be cared for by a myriad of other people. It is also separate from its mother, it is no longer inside the mother and it is no longer dependant on the mother and the mother alone. That’s why abortion is a choice a woman can make.

And lastly Amanda,

Again and again you insist that your only purpose is to educate women. But your actions have made it clear that you do not actually want women to make an informed decision. You want women to not have an abortion, period. You will do whatever it takes to make a woman ‘choose’ to keep the child.

You refuse to give any information on the risks of childbirth and the mental trauma of adoption. The CDC has shown that bearing a child is 13 times more likely to kill a woman than having an abortion. Let’s also not forget Post Partum Depression, do you have any pamphlets on that?

And once again I will state that I am not the one denying PAS. The governing body of psychology and psychiatry is the one denying PAS. The APA and countless per-reviewed, scientific and statistically sound studies after it, have shown that while some women do experience grief, those numbers are vastly outweighed by the women who feel relief. I’m not saying that there are not women who experience grief. But while you mention three women who had an abortion(s) and regretted it, I know three who have had abortions and did not regret it. And I don’t even run a clinic/ministry.

The women you see are not a proper sample. A quick statistics lesson for you; the women coming into your ministry are not a random sample. Without a random sample no correlation can be claimed.

So just because you see women who are unhappy with the counseling at WHO and just because you see women who feel grief does not mean that all women who have abortions are grieving and are unhappy with their choice.

You don’t want women to make an informed decision, this I know because you don’t address the risks of both options, only one. This is ironic, because you’re focusing on the procedure that is the safer of the two.

You are anti-choice, I know this because you spread false information and it breaks your heart every time a woman makes an informed choice.

I am pro-informed-consent-on-all-options, not just abortion. By only portraying the risks of one procedure you are fear-mongering. If you were at all interested in women making an informed choice you would be educating just as fiercely about the (much more common and deadlier) compilations of pregnancy.

Love,

Rabble

Via: 1, 2, 3

Talking to Amanda (Director of The Back Porch, and Edmonton CPC)

Orginal Post Here

Amanda's Comments:
Dear Rabble,

I’m so sorry you’ve heard such negative things about the Back Porch ministry that has led you to believe that it is a “thinly-veiled anti-choice bullshit-machine”. It seems to me that your source is slightly confused about what we do, so let me try to clear things up for everyone. Brigitte is right. We do try to "welcome people who want to speak to someone before they have their abortion". We offer information on abortion, the procedure, possible risks and complications, as well as parenting & adoption information. We offer a listening ear to those who may have not had anyone to listen to them. Those who come into the Back Porch are free to come in and free to leave. We do not keep them here against their will. Our hope is that they will take the information and maybe reconsider. Based on what these women tell us, most of them have not gone for any counseling prior to making an abortion appointment. Many (and note, I do not say all) women make decisions based on emotions at the time, and not always on facts. Most people who agree when I say basing decisions on emotions isn’t always wise because emotions come and go, whereas facts remain the same.

It is true that we offer women and men cookies and coffee, etc. and they can choose to eat them or not. Many of them choose not to, which is fine with us. They are well aware of the fact that they cannot eat or drink 6 hours before their procedure, and we do not force them to eat or drink. They can make that choice, and they do. Some of the people we speak to do choose to stay and speak with us for longer periods of time, and offering refreshments is our way of being hospitable to them.

Sometimes we get the opportunity to speak to women who have had previous experiences with abortion at this clinic. These women have told us that there is very little counseling before the procedure. Those we have spoken to have essentially told us that the counseling is basically, “Do you want an abortion or not?” This is what clients of Woman’s Health Options have told us after they had an abortion with them. I did not make this up. I have also spoken to many women who said that upon hearing that they are in an unplanned pregnancy, their doctor refers them for an abortion. Not to a pregnancy counselor.

Our volunteers are not social workers. I agree, yet they do have training to speak with clients facing an abortion and many have had unplanned pregnancies and have had abortions, or they became single parents, they placed for adoption or they adopted. Our volunteers are trained to do speak and act in the most kind and compassionate way. We realize and understand that abortion is a very touchy subject, and that any woman facing a crisis or unplanned pregnancy is in a very difficult situation. We do not judge her, instead we try to help her learn the facts and help her make a choice she can live with. Abortion doesn’t erase the fact that she was pregnant and had a child, and we want her to be aware of all the facts before she makes a choice.

As I said above, no one is forced to stay at the Back Porch, and many do leave and go ahead with their abortion. But for those who change their minds and wish to speak with a pregnancy counselor, or look at adoption options, or who’d like to parent, or at least take some time to think more about their decision…well we’re here for them too. We’re also here for those who are post-abortive and need someone to speak with afterwards. I have spoken to many post abortive women; some who regret their abortion and some who don’t. We are very pro-woman and are here to support women in the best way we can.

I hope this clears things up a bit.

Sincerely,

Amanda
The Back Porch

My Comments:
Hi Amanda,
I spent a bit of time researching, looking around and finding out about the back porch. I looked at your website, I read a few articles and I’ve read your comment.

My mind remains unchanged. Your organization is nothing more than anti-choice lies with a thin veneer of compassion.

You “offer information on abortion, the procedure, possible risks and complications, as well as parenting & adoption information”. But I don’t see anywhere on your website any links to Health Canada, Capital Health or any sites that would have this accurate information. Furthermore you fail to mention the risks associated with giving birth. If you were truly interested in letting women know all their options and knowing the risks you would not be afraid to link to places like Health Canada where women could get unbiased information on their options and the risks thereof.

I would like to use your insistence on “informed consent” to speak to the coffee and cookies you offer. The women and men may be able to choose whether or not they eat, but are you sure these women are fully aware of the consequences of eating these cookies? You see, just as you worry that the decision to have an abortion is made “based on emotions at the time, and not always on facts” I worry that these women (having not eaten for a while) will make the decision to eat the cookies based on being hungry, not on the fact that they may not be able to have their surgery. I somehow doubt that you inform the women of this fact.

I have also heard that your clinic intentionally deceives women who are lost. If they mistake your clinic for Women’s Health Options you will say they aren’t that clinic. But if they ask for directions you won’t give them. If this is true I fear for the women who enter your center, you are so set on changing their minds that you refuse to give them the simple directions of “across the street”

As for the women you’ve spoken to, I too have spoken to women. In fact, I have had the privilege to speak with one of the social workers at Woman’s Health Options. She has assured me that the counseling is as long and intense as it needs to be. Many women who have problems with counselors at clinics have such problems because they expect these counselors to be their moral compass. This is not the job of counselors. If a woman is not having issues with her decision then the counseling will be very brief. The counselors are there to ensure informed consent and deal with any issues the woman might be having. If the woman is assured of her choice it is not the counselors’ job to try and talk her out of it.

Your volunteers are not social workers, they do not have certification nor do they have the education that social workers do. No amount of your training is going to turn them into certified counselors. I have a friend who works at a bakery; they give him on-site training to make different styles of coffee. This does not make him a chef. This is why (I’m guessing) those doctors referred women to health clinics (which are also sometimes abortion clinics) instead of pregnancy counselors. Places like Birthright, Pregnancy Care Center and The Back Porch do not have qualified counselors and do not refer women to the proper health services.

I read an article online from VUE Weekly about your clinic and it mentioned pamphlets about post-abortion syndrome. It included a quote from you saying “Not all women experience [post-abortion syndrome] but a good majority do, and the symptoms can range from various things like guilt to severe depression to suicide”. Now, I’ve done my research and PAS is a very interesting condition; especially since it’s been disproven. The American Psychological Association in 1988 proved there is no such condition. PAS is not in the DSM; and study after study has proven that at best 1% of women experience a negative change in emotions following an abortion.

I also took a look at your website and I noticed a little flaw. You don’t link to external sources. There’s nothing but internal links under your ‘resources’ heading. You have no way of getting to Health Canada from your site and don’t offer women any way of contacting anyone except your operation.

You say that you are “pro-woman” but you are aligning yourself with places that lie to women and pressure them into decisions they don’t want. You are coercing women into a choice that is the number one cause of disease burden in women aged 15-44. You are aligning yourself with a movement that kills women.

Love,

Rabble

Reply to: "How 'pro-choice' is 'pro-choice'"

"In relation to the last several preceding posts. This was a recent story related to the economics of abortion industry.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,571215,00.html?test=latestnews

It reminds me a little bit about our involvement in the dental industry. I don't want to cast dispersions on the profession. But there are a variety of competing interests and always a variety of choices in treatment. There is the patient; there is counseling; there is informed consent; there is everyone's welfare; and there is profit; there are always judgment calls; and there is what insurance covers or not.

It takes strong individuals not to have the profit motive be number one concern. It is only human. Always take it into account. You are putting your welfare into the hand of people who run a business. Ethics are a huge thing that vary from organization to organization and individual to individual. Don't be duped and don't be rushed and don't be pressured. Get another opinion when you feel you need one.

TAKE YOUR TIME. Try praying,too. You might think and listen more and discover entirely different and surprising options. You might discover you have courage and hope and support."

My Reply is as Follows:

Hey there, it's lucky I checked back. You see, you never actually posted my comments, so I never got the e-mail that told me they were up.
But I sometimes check back and in this case it's good that I did.
So anyways to speak to the points you made:
First and foremost, abortion is not an "industry" least of all in Canada. In Canada, abortion is fully covered by the healthcare system. This is why the term "abortion doctor" is a misnomer. There are no doctors whose entire profession is abortion. There are OB/Gyns who preform abortions in addition to giving paps and delivering babies.
Heck, even in the States, where abortion isn't covered it's not an industry. The big money is in birth-control.
As for the story you've got there from Fox, I've seen it around and I've seen many questions raised about it. For example: How did she become a Planned Parenthood director when she was apparently unaware of how abortions are preformed? There are also many inconsistencies with her claims of executive pressuring her into making more girls have abortions.
Anyhow, I'd like to point out that you are equating abortion with the pro-choice movement. It's a common mistake, but you see, abortion is only one of three different choices a woman has. Pro-choice is about ensuring women have access to all three choices and may decide when they reproduce. This includes access to birth control, pre-natal care, adoption agencies (both closed and open), abortion services and post-natal care.
Anyhow, I'm glad I popped in, next time just post the comment so that I get the e-mail, tagging things 'Dear Rabble' sadly doesn't send them to my inbox.
Love,
Rabble
Note the lack of profanity. I was a very good girl, apparently certain combinations of letters can deeply offend some people. Despite the fact that they put those words up on the front of their blog.

What You Probably Didn't Know About "Partial-Birth" Abortions!

This was not written by me. It was written by a woman who is not only incredibly smart and a very talented writer, but also a good friend of one of my Tumblr followers on LiveJournal. Her name is Grace. The following is her personal reason for being pro-choice.

- - - - -

Here’s the deal. I very, very likely have fertility issues. My infertility isn’t set in stone because, hey, things like that pretty much can’t be if everything is present and not super-cancerous - but I probably have a 50/50 chance of being infertile, and if I ever do conceive it’s very likely that my pregnancy will end in a miscarriage. God, even that is a stupidly passive way of saying it. What I mean is that, if I somehow manage to become pregnant, I likely have a very high chance of ending up lying on the floor of my bathtub in excruciating pain, vomiting, bleeding profusely, and suicidally depressed due to the loss of my probably wanted child in between bouts of unconsciousness when I pass out from pain, blood loss, and a high fever. If I am lucky - if I am lucky - I will pass all of the fetal tissue, in semi-recognizable chunks, along with incredible amounts of blood. That doesn’t sound traumatizing at all. If I am unlucky (which is actually pretty likely!) I will not pass all of the fetal tissue on my own. In that case, I would need to go to the hospital and seek a D&C.

A D&C is, despite not being the termination of a live pregnancy, technically considered to be “abortion” by doctors. In my case, a D&C would be the main thing standing in between me and a uterine infection that might end up fatal in the event of an incomplete miscarriage. This is especially true if the miscarriage doesn’t result in contractions on its own - something which is also extremely likely.

Long story short, abortion legality means that I get to not die bleeding and alone on my bathroom floor. Or, for that matter, anywhere, with anyone; not from a miscarriage, anyway.

Miscarriages occur in 20% of recognized pregnancies. Not all of these miscarriages end up requiring medical assistance, but many do. Do you have any idea what kind of number that is? If your answer is “huge,” then you’re getting warmer.

About ten or eleven paragraphs down this article there’s some information about “partial-birth abortion,” such as it is. Read it and come back. I’ll wait. ♫♪♫ Okay, you’re back? Great! Okay, so that procedure - ID&X - is what I would likely pursue if my hypothetical miscarriage occurred in the late second trimester or third trimester of my wanted pregnancy. It’s important to me to a) say goodbye to my child intact and b) be able to bury it. I realize this sounds like the subversive rantings of a murderer, but bear with me here. The banning of the ID&X/”partial-birth abortion” does not ban “late-term abortion” - women still are able to seek abortions following the 22nd week, but these are typically only performed for medical reasons. The banning of the ID&X procedure bans only the extraction of an intact fetus. Meaning that its banning means that, even if a woman who spontaneously miscarried due to nothing she did or did not do needed medical assistance to evacuate her uterus, her child would have to be, legally, cut up before it was removed. Gross! Thanks, crazypants pro-life contingent (and my mom :D), I really appreciate you seeking the desecration of the corpse of my hypothetical child! That’s so goddamn moral of you.

The story brought up by people with a pro-life stance is of the promiscuous woman who uses abortion as “a form of birth control” or a tool to get out of an “inconvenience.” In my case, if I were to get pregnant with an unwanted child and I considered myself for whatever reason unable to take care of it (financial issues, living situation issues, issues with abuse, instability, etc), I would probably seek an abortion, and not for convenience. For one, 1 in 5 pregnancies end in a miscarriage. As I’ve already explained, my chances of having a miscarriage are likely much, much higher. If I conceived and the pregnancy was not only unwanted but, if brought to term, would bring a child into a bad situation, I would seek to lower my chances of that whole “bleeding, vomiting, and contracting painfully in the bathtub” scenario. It would, more likely than not, be a nonviable pregnancy.

Other people’s reasons for abortion are their own. But I cannot with a clear conscience be pro-life, knowing what I know about my own situation. My situation is not uncommon, and while it is worse than some, miscarriages are bad for anybody. My issues with a pro-life stance are separate from my reasons to be pro-choice - I don’t think I’ll ever discuss them here, because a lot of my opinions are rude and stupid generalizations based on idiots waving signs on the street.

"The Back Porch" Sound like a good place for counselling?

Post about The Back Porch
The Back Porch is a Crisis Pregnancy Center in Edmonton, Alberta.
I have heard reports from people in Edmonton about their activaties.
I've heard of the Back Porch.
It's not a place that "welcomes people who want to speak to someone before they have their abortion". It's a thinly-veiled Anti-choice bullshit-machine.
You do know they feed the women in there right. Hot chocolate and biscuits all around. I bet you never wondered why. I think you might want to know that women cannot eat or drink for 6 hours before their abortion (just like any other surgery that involves a painkiller). This seeming act of compassion has made it so women who live out of town (since Options is the northernmost clinic in Canada) can't have access to a safe, legal procedure.
And as to your sob-story about counseling? Also bullshit.
You see, there are counselors inside the clinic. I know this will boggle your mind, but there are social workers, trained in counseling (which the people in the Back Porch are not) who make sure the patients are making the decision freely. They work to alleviate any concerns the patient may have (which Porchers don't do) and they do not push anything on the woman (which is vastly different from the Porchers).
So no, it's not "They make their abortion appointment on line and then make their way to the clinic -- and that is it". There's so much more to it than you will ever know. The woman inside the clinic is constantly counseled, before, during and after. In fact, if she is on the operation table, speculum inside her and the anesthetic running and suddenly decided she's not sure the procedure stops. Right there.
And lastly, you do know amniocentesis is a test to determine the genetics of a baby, right? Like to see if the baby has spinabifida. Or a post-natal-fatal version of Trisomy.
I know this will probably never get put up because you've chosen to censor your comments but that's cool, if you could handle truth, you'd look at facts.
Love,
Rabble

Tumblr: Anti-Choice Posters Are Not a Place to Get Your Facts.

My Post on Tumblr
This is why I like reblogs. They make life easier. ^__^

Abortion and Health Care Costs

Post Here
For the love of fucking GOD.
You people are stupid!
You can't not pay taxes for something you don't support. That's like going to the zoo and saying "Well I don't think tigers should be in captivity, so here's $15.50". Admission is $20 fuckers.
If you get to fucking opt-out of taxes for safe, legal medical procedures, then I get to opt out of the taxes that supply service to your churches, or your fucking Crisis Pregnancy Centers or hell to your house. Can I do that? Where on my taxes is the form that let's me tick off people and services I don't want funded by my money.

I also like how the argument is that is could save the system money.
Only, abortions don't go away. De-funding abortion does not magically erase the need for it.
In fact, restrictions do nothing to reduce abortion rates. Instead, they wind up being done in back-alleys, these procedures kill 70,000 women every year. They also cost the health care system millions.
Do you see how fucking stupid this is?
Love,
Rabble

Odds are you'll never see it, seeing as the comments have to go through the owner for approval.

Hmmm...I see a problem in this platform

On my old blog Tumblr, I would 'comment' on someone's blog as what was called a re-blog.
This way my followers and the OP could both see my comment and it showed up as a post of mine.
But alas, there is no equivalent on blogspot.
I may have to simply start posting my comments with links to the posts.

We'll see...
Just letting the internet know I am Rousing Rabble, you just can't see it...
Love,
Rabble

Dear Blogspot,

I do not want to see "journey through infertility" blogs. I'm not sure where you got the idea that they are something I would like to see, but they are not.

If you would let me search for other blogs, that'd be peachy. Thanks.
Love,
Rabble

Hello World,

Hello World,
I am Rabble.
This is where I was born.
I am the voice of the radically pro-choice.
I am that bitch who won't stop talking about abortion and keeps getting in fights with people about it.
I am that bitch that doesn't keep quiet when an anti-choice activist speaks, I refute them, and I use facts (and a healthy dose of profanity).
I am that bitch who sees injustice and then screams at the top of her lungs until it stops.
I am Rabble.
Nice to meet you.