Dear People,

Okay, wow. I am apparently such a huge disturbance that it requires four different people to try and refute me.

That’s fine, but I’m a busy girl, please understand that I won’t be able to reply right away and I’ll have to give you guys single-comment replies. I can’t respond to all of you individually as much as I’d like to.

Let’s start with Bror, who keeps mixing up your and you’re. Here’s a tip, if what you mean to say is ‘you are’ then you turn the ‘a’ into an apostrophe and make it you’re.

I think that the Back Porch, with its insistence on women getting outside counseling (only the people there are not actually counselors) should at the very least make sure that the women they’re offering cookies to know that this will make it so they can’t have their surgery that day.

You claim “these women eat a cookie and have another day to think about the whole thing” but you’re ignoring the fact that Options does not only cater to local women. Women from poor communities in the North have to find a way to Options if they want an abortion. When The Back Porch feeds these women they are often taking away the only chance a poor woman has for a safe abortion. This usually means that those women are going to have unsafe abortions, which kill women.

I’m not the one denying PAS. The governing body of psychological and psychiatric research denies PAS. It simply doesn’t exist. Your experience as a pastor is biased because you are only encountering women who feel guilt afterwards. You are not talking to the women who feel relieved afterwards. Odds are the women you’re talking to had some sort of condition before the abortion (like say an abusive partner). You’re also not talking to the women who were forcibly impregnated by an abusive partner and the abortion was a welcome relief.

And your comment about murder is ridiculous. Abortion is not murder.

Now Bridgette,

Please find me one doctor who has a degree in abortion giving. No such thing exists. As for the doctors who perform abortions at that clinic, why do you care how old they are? My grandfather is over 80 and he still works on his farm. Is he too old to be working? You can’t state that just because someone is working at a particular age that they haven’t been doing their job right.

The Planned Parenthood article is mostly irrelevant to this argument. As I’ve stated the woman’s story is full of holes. She’d been caught removing patient files not long before she had ‘a change of heart’. It’s also questionable how she became the director of Planned Parenthood if she was apparently unaware of how abortions were performed. And I really don’t care how long the government expects you to keep receipts. The point is that abortions have never been a large part of Planned Parenthood. The cost of birth control over two years is way higher than that of an abortion. And Birth control takes far fewer staff members to hand out. It simply doesn’t make sense for abortions to be a large part of Planned Parenthood.

Any yes, Bridgette I am pro-choice and against the Back Porch. I think the Back Porch has a place, no doubt. But by refusing to give simple directions and by not warning the women in advance about the consequences of the cookies and lastly by spread false, fear-mongering, information they are far over-stepping their boundaries.

And Steve,

A six month old cannot survive alone, true, but it can be cared for by a myriad of other people. It is also separate from its mother, it is no longer inside the mother and it is no longer dependant on the mother and the mother alone. That’s why abortion is a choice a woman can make.

And lastly Amanda,

Again and again you insist that your only purpose is to educate women. But your actions have made it clear that you do not actually want women to make an informed decision. You want women to not have an abortion, period. You will do whatever it takes to make a woman ‘choose’ to keep the child.

You refuse to give any information on the risks of childbirth and the mental trauma of adoption. The CDC has shown that bearing a child is 13 times more likely to kill a woman than having an abortion. Let’s also not forget Post Partum Depression, do you have any pamphlets on that?

And once again I will state that I am not the one denying PAS. The governing body of psychology and psychiatry is the one denying PAS. The APA and countless per-reviewed, scientific and statistically sound studies after it, have shown that while some women do experience grief, those numbers are vastly outweighed by the women who feel relief. I’m not saying that there are not women who experience grief. But while you mention three women who had an abortion(s) and regretted it, I know three who have had abortions and did not regret it. And I don’t even run a clinic/ministry.

The women you see are not a proper sample. A quick statistics lesson for you; the women coming into your ministry are not a random sample. Without a random sample no correlation can be claimed.

So just because you see women who are unhappy with the counseling at WHO and just because you see women who feel grief does not mean that all women who have abortions are grieving and are unhappy with their choice.

You don’t want women to make an informed decision, this I know because you don’t address the risks of both options, only one. This is ironic, because you’re focusing on the procedure that is the safer of the two.

You are anti-choice, I know this because you spread false information and it breaks your heart every time a woman makes an informed choice.

I am pro-informed-consent-on-all-options, not just abortion. By only portraying the risks of one procedure you are fear-mongering. If you were at all interested in women making an informed choice you would be educating just as fiercely about the (much more common and deadlier) compilations of pregnancy.

Love,

Rabble

Via: 1, 2, 3

Talking to Amanda (Director of The Back Porch, and Edmonton CPC)

Orginal Post Here

Amanda's Comments:
Dear Rabble,

I’m so sorry you’ve heard such negative things about the Back Porch ministry that has led you to believe that it is a “thinly-veiled anti-choice bullshit-machine”. It seems to me that your source is slightly confused about what we do, so let me try to clear things up for everyone. Brigitte is right. We do try to "welcome people who want to speak to someone before they have their abortion". We offer information on abortion, the procedure, possible risks and complications, as well as parenting & adoption information. We offer a listening ear to those who may have not had anyone to listen to them. Those who come into the Back Porch are free to come in and free to leave. We do not keep them here against their will. Our hope is that they will take the information and maybe reconsider. Based on what these women tell us, most of them have not gone for any counseling prior to making an abortion appointment. Many (and note, I do not say all) women make decisions based on emotions at the time, and not always on facts. Most people who agree when I say basing decisions on emotions isn’t always wise because emotions come and go, whereas facts remain the same.

It is true that we offer women and men cookies and coffee, etc. and they can choose to eat them or not. Many of them choose not to, which is fine with us. They are well aware of the fact that they cannot eat or drink 6 hours before their procedure, and we do not force them to eat or drink. They can make that choice, and they do. Some of the people we speak to do choose to stay and speak with us for longer periods of time, and offering refreshments is our way of being hospitable to them.

Sometimes we get the opportunity to speak to women who have had previous experiences with abortion at this clinic. These women have told us that there is very little counseling before the procedure. Those we have spoken to have essentially told us that the counseling is basically, “Do you want an abortion or not?” This is what clients of Woman’s Health Options have told us after they had an abortion with them. I did not make this up. I have also spoken to many women who said that upon hearing that they are in an unplanned pregnancy, their doctor refers them for an abortion. Not to a pregnancy counselor.

Our volunteers are not social workers. I agree, yet they do have training to speak with clients facing an abortion and many have had unplanned pregnancies and have had abortions, or they became single parents, they placed for adoption or they adopted. Our volunteers are trained to do speak and act in the most kind and compassionate way. We realize and understand that abortion is a very touchy subject, and that any woman facing a crisis or unplanned pregnancy is in a very difficult situation. We do not judge her, instead we try to help her learn the facts and help her make a choice she can live with. Abortion doesn’t erase the fact that she was pregnant and had a child, and we want her to be aware of all the facts before she makes a choice.

As I said above, no one is forced to stay at the Back Porch, and many do leave and go ahead with their abortion. But for those who change their minds and wish to speak with a pregnancy counselor, or look at adoption options, or who’d like to parent, or at least take some time to think more about their decision…well we’re here for them too. We’re also here for those who are post-abortive and need someone to speak with afterwards. I have spoken to many post abortive women; some who regret their abortion and some who don’t. We are very pro-woman and are here to support women in the best way we can.

I hope this clears things up a bit.

Sincerely,

Amanda
The Back Porch

My Comments:
Hi Amanda,
I spent a bit of time researching, looking around and finding out about the back porch. I looked at your website, I read a few articles and I’ve read your comment.

My mind remains unchanged. Your organization is nothing more than anti-choice lies with a thin veneer of compassion.

You “offer information on abortion, the procedure, possible risks and complications, as well as parenting & adoption information”. But I don’t see anywhere on your website any links to Health Canada, Capital Health or any sites that would have this accurate information. Furthermore you fail to mention the risks associated with giving birth. If you were truly interested in letting women know all their options and knowing the risks you would not be afraid to link to places like Health Canada where women could get unbiased information on their options and the risks thereof.

I would like to use your insistence on “informed consent” to speak to the coffee and cookies you offer. The women and men may be able to choose whether or not they eat, but are you sure these women are fully aware of the consequences of eating these cookies? You see, just as you worry that the decision to have an abortion is made “based on emotions at the time, and not always on facts” I worry that these women (having not eaten for a while) will make the decision to eat the cookies based on being hungry, not on the fact that they may not be able to have their surgery. I somehow doubt that you inform the women of this fact.

I have also heard that your clinic intentionally deceives women who are lost. If they mistake your clinic for Women’s Health Options you will say they aren’t that clinic. But if they ask for directions you won’t give them. If this is true I fear for the women who enter your center, you are so set on changing their minds that you refuse to give them the simple directions of “across the street”

As for the women you’ve spoken to, I too have spoken to women. In fact, I have had the privilege to speak with one of the social workers at Woman’s Health Options. She has assured me that the counseling is as long and intense as it needs to be. Many women who have problems with counselors at clinics have such problems because they expect these counselors to be their moral compass. This is not the job of counselors. If a woman is not having issues with her decision then the counseling will be very brief. The counselors are there to ensure informed consent and deal with any issues the woman might be having. If the woman is assured of her choice it is not the counselors’ job to try and talk her out of it.

Your volunteers are not social workers, they do not have certification nor do they have the education that social workers do. No amount of your training is going to turn them into certified counselors. I have a friend who works at a bakery; they give him on-site training to make different styles of coffee. This does not make him a chef. This is why (I’m guessing) those doctors referred women to health clinics (which are also sometimes abortion clinics) instead of pregnancy counselors. Places like Birthright, Pregnancy Care Center and The Back Porch do not have qualified counselors and do not refer women to the proper health services.

I read an article online from VUE Weekly about your clinic and it mentioned pamphlets about post-abortion syndrome. It included a quote from you saying “Not all women experience [post-abortion syndrome] but a good majority do, and the symptoms can range from various things like guilt to severe depression to suicide”. Now, I’ve done my research and PAS is a very interesting condition; especially since it’s been disproven. The American Psychological Association in 1988 proved there is no such condition. PAS is not in the DSM; and study after study has proven that at best 1% of women experience a negative change in emotions following an abortion.

I also took a look at your website and I noticed a little flaw. You don’t link to external sources. There’s nothing but internal links under your ‘resources’ heading. You have no way of getting to Health Canada from your site and don’t offer women any way of contacting anyone except your operation.

You say that you are “pro-woman” but you are aligning yourself with places that lie to women and pressure them into decisions they don’t want. You are coercing women into a choice that is the number one cause of disease burden in women aged 15-44. You are aligning yourself with a movement that kills women.

Love,

Rabble

"The Back Porch" Sound like a good place for counselling?

Post about The Back Porch
The Back Porch is a Crisis Pregnancy Center in Edmonton, Alberta.
I have heard reports from people in Edmonton about their activaties.
I've heard of the Back Porch.
It's not a place that "welcomes people who want to speak to someone before they have their abortion". It's a thinly-veiled Anti-choice bullshit-machine.
You do know they feed the women in there right. Hot chocolate and biscuits all around. I bet you never wondered why. I think you might want to know that women cannot eat or drink for 6 hours before their abortion (just like any other surgery that involves a painkiller). This seeming act of compassion has made it so women who live out of town (since Options is the northernmost clinic in Canada) can't have access to a safe, legal procedure.
And as to your sob-story about counseling? Also bullshit.
You see, there are counselors inside the clinic. I know this will boggle your mind, but there are social workers, trained in counseling (which the people in the Back Porch are not) who make sure the patients are making the decision freely. They work to alleviate any concerns the patient may have (which Porchers don't do) and they do not push anything on the woman (which is vastly different from the Porchers).
So no, it's not "They make their abortion appointment on line and then make their way to the clinic -- and that is it". There's so much more to it than you will ever know. The woman inside the clinic is constantly counseled, before, during and after. In fact, if she is on the operation table, speculum inside her and the anesthetic running and suddenly decided she's not sure the procedure stops. Right there.
And lastly, you do know amniocentesis is a test to determine the genetics of a baby, right? Like to see if the baby has spinabifida. Or a post-natal-fatal version of Trisomy.
I know this will probably never get put up because you've chosen to censor your comments but that's cool, if you could handle truth, you'd look at facts.
Love,
Rabble